🤷

No, and that’s clearly a bad-faith reading. If the Anarchists refuse to work with the Marxists, to the point of directing the revolution against itself, then that’s an issue.

How is it a bad faith reading when you reiterate it immediately after? Who decides what is "the point of directing the revolution against itself". Anarchists will surely tell you they are doing the exact opposite.

I don’t see why you think Marxist analysis driving decision making requires the use of strategies like Vanguard parties. Vanguardism is a strategy, not the practice of Marxism.

I don't give two wooden nickels about the "Marxist analysis driving decision making". I want you to tell me what ML praxis you're doing when you declared "Both" earlier!

Hexbear Anarchists would disagree, though I won’t speak for them.

If they disagree with core anarchist theory then one has to start adding scare quotes to "Anarchist"

You’re guilty of the same, you’ve cultivated a community generally hostile towards Marxists while outwardly saying you don’t have a problem with them. I think it’s better to own up to your biases and how they have impacted your community, rather than try to present dbzer0 as uniquely open to discussion.

You realize one of our most popular communities is run my a Marxist and promotes left unity, yes? Please don't project.

On that note, I don’t think there’s any real discussion to be had going forward with this convo, we clearly aren’t seeing eye to eye on what constitutes what type of praxis nor what left-unity looks like, and therefore I don’t think it makes sense to continue wasting what I assume is a nice Sunday for the both of us.

Eh, I just saw this at the end of my reply. No need to reply if you don't want to.

Wrong reading here. Anarchists aren’t “dissent,” what becomes dissent is splitting and factionalism.

So, Anarchists are allowed to exist in ML societies so long as they become or pretend to be MLs. Gotcha.

Both.

So you join a anarchist movement which has momentum, and along with direct action, you try to set up vanguard parties and shit?

If so, that's just entryism.

I think you’re just trying to argue semantics here. Hexbear is made up of different leftists all pursuing similar goals through different strains.

Not at all. But I do think you're trying to avoid the thrust of my argument by simply restating your position as a fact and taking us 4 replies back.

An anarchist doing anarchist stuff is not in "left unity" with an ML doing ML stuff because they hang out in the same bar.

An ML not doing anarchist stuff is not in "left unity" with an anarchist doing anarchist stuff.

An anarchist and an ML hanging out with each other is a just vibes.

An anarchist and an ML hanging out in a web forum with a peculiar style, is an online culture.

Without common praxis, there is no unity. This is why anarchists are in unity with each other even though syndicalists do syndicalist stuff, and mutualists do mutualist stuff etc. Because our multitude of direct action complement each other in prefiguring the system. You know what doesn't complement anarchist praxis and more often than not, counters it? ML praxis!

How?

Because cultists prefer to not venture out of their communities, and discourage interacting with people who don't already share the same worldview.

So then where is the line between reasonable dissent and platforming?

Very big subject and I doubt I have time to expand here. But to put it short: Aligned goals. You claim anarchists are part of the left, then their alternative positions are just dissent from your viewpoint, so according to your left unity, you need to afford them dissent. If you actually claim, that no, they don't share goals so we need to silence their free speech and suppress their actions, then don't prattle about "left unity" either.

It’s semantics. If a Marxist uses Marxist analysis to side with Anarchists, they are still acting as a Marxist.

Again, praxis. What praxis are they doing! Anarchist or ML? Your Marxist analysis is irrelevant.

As I already stated, many members of Hexbear are also members of PSL, FRSO, Food Not Bombs, or local leftist parties and groups.

So? How is some Hexbear not taking part in FNB showing "left unity" to those who do?

Again, all you're showing here is that hexbear left unity is just vibes. "We all hang out in the same place and we all do different things, so we're united (somehow)"

So then why ask me to send them your way?

You suggested I should talk to them. If you have someone who's willing to do the effort, they are free to step outside of the hexbear compound and talk.

It isn’t about HB Anarchists being “precious,” Hexbear is already active enough and has its own Anarchist communities. Jumping to dbzer0s isn’t exactly the first choice for most people.

And again, kinda cultish, but you do you.

For clarity, does this extend to Capitalists? Fascists?

Hah I knew it. No, dissent is not the same as platforming.

I’m gonna disagree on the semantics there.

Really? So doing anarchist praxis is not anarchism?

On the contrary, it supports leftists to do what they believe is most effective and learn from other tendencies.

Supports how? With thoughts and prayers? That's not unity. That's just vibes.

Why don’t you make a thread inviting them? I’m not wanting to get accused of “brigading” like Hexbear always is.

Because I think it's fruitless if they don't even bother to take part in completely neutral topics which have nothing to do with "AES".

I’ve run into issues with dbzer0 as an instance regarding this, your rules surrounding MLs are deliberately written in a manner that limits discussion. If you change the rules to be more free-speech then I’ll consider it, I used to do so until it became clear that I had to watch what I said, while takes like “Lenin wasn’t a Marxist” stay up and even get postively upvoted.

The only explicit rule we have regarding MLs is "no tankie communities". And of course I'm not going to remove comments just to fit your sensibilities about Lenin.

But in any case I was not talking about you specifically, I was countering your point about Hexbear anarchists being too precious to venture outside a space where ML-style "AES" is not the accepted paradigm, which for real is an utterly an absurd thing for an anarchist to be hung upon.

At what point does dissent become counter-revolutionary? Never? Or is there a point where it makes sense to enforce unity?

No. It never makes sense to "enforce unity". Dissent doesn't become counter-revolutionary unless there's counter-revolutionary praxis involved. Since you're all about "left unity", you should be perfectly happy to let anarchists practice anarchist prefiguration inside a ML society, no?

So if I ideologically think the movement is flawed but materially support it I am considered by you an Anarchist?

No, but it means you're doing anarchism. I.e. it's not "left unity". It's just anarchism.

If a movement gains traction, it is more important to effectively support that movement, however it manifests, to the best of your abilities.

Again, a movement doesn't gain traction on its own. Its unity of praxis that makes it so, which is explicitly what your "left unity" is not doing, since it waits and see if someone else has traction to join it. It's nonsense!

That’s your opinion, of course, and Hexbear’s Anarchists clearly disagree. I suggest talking to them about it.

Sure, tell them to come over to /c/anarchism!

I don’t see that at all. If dbzer0 as an instance is generally hostile to support of AES, it isn’t always useful nor fun to engage if you do support AES.

dbzer0 is not hexbear. We don't ban people who are misguided about "AES", like hexbear would. Not do we dogpile them for wrongthink. As such, there's not problem in coming over to talk to us.

However I would be raising quite an eyebrow to any anarchist who avoids talking to other anarchists who don't accept state capitalism is a form of socialism.

It is historical. Many Anarchists joined the Bolsheviks to support the mass movement, and the Bolsheviks also supported the Anarchists in Spain for a time. Disagreements are allowed to happen as well, my point is that the division isn’t black and white.

My point is that the division is very much black and white. The anarchists which joined the Bolsheviks got disillusioned, purged or killed. The anarchists of Spain learned similar lessons. Disagreements are allowed to happen in anarchist revolutions, sure, sometimes too much for their own good. But we've seen that in ML ones, persistent anarchist disagreement is an eventual path towards the front of a firing squad for being "counter-revolutionary".

You call it “entryism,” I call it left-unity.

No, when you join an succesful Anarchist movement and don't act like an anarchist, it's entryism. When you act as an anarchist, it's just anarchism.

Again, it's all about the praxis. How one larps on a web forum is irrelevant.

Even then, coalitions have their place as well.

Sure, if all you're doing is playing reformism...

The former is more of a point than the latter, there are clearly Anarchists on Hexbear and Anarchist theory is often talked about and encouraged.

So long as it anarchist theory which suppresses the largest anarchist lessons learned painfully in the 20th century, which is that left unity doesn't exist 🤷

Hexbear’s Anarchists aren’t likely to participate in an Anarchist community that fundamentally disagrees on analysis of AES.

Starting to sound like a cult here, buddy...

I don't get it...

I literally just stated that if either movement started to truly pick up steam, most would join the one picking up steam.

First of all, that's ahistorical. Bolsheviks infamously denied a revolution was happening and tried to wait for better material conditions, while a revolution was happening. This kind of things happens all the time.

Anyway, you just rephrased yourself. How would a movement "pick up steam" with two factions pulling in different directions? Or do you claim that MLs would join a purely anarchist movement? If so, that's not an example of left unity. It's an argument for entryism or something. And we already know what happened when anarchists joined ML movements picking up steam...

I thought we were speaking about geopolitical positions, not just site culture. Lemmygradders don’t speak the same as Hexbear either, Hexbear has a unique site culture, that’s true

No I'm talking about the site culture. I think that's the primary reason people put aside their core differences to hang out, either that, or LARPing as the other faction to give credence to "left unity" 🤷

Again, I suggest asking Hexbear users directly.

If any non-toxic anarchists venture out of Hexbear, sure I can ask them. !anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com is right there but I never see any hexbear anarchists commenting (except for the times they brigaded)

Please link or screenshot from the modlog the comments that got you banned and the mod note. Otherwise people can't judge.

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Note, that just means you were sitebanned. This is how the software displays this.

Also !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com

Most people are flexible, and if in the event there was mass success along Marxist lines or Anarchist lines, would join the successful movement.

A movement is only successful through unity of praxis. How would one succeed when MLs and Anarchists are pulling into two different directions?

(I'm going to put aside for now the many things I have to say about historical lessons anarchists have learned and why to avoid this)

And I am telling you that you can understand this “peculiarity” by reading Imperialism.

I doubt Lenin had much to say about the peculiar way leftist nerds spam emojis in an online forum :D

This is the most correct thing you’ve said. Hexbear isn’t an org, it was described by one user as “not the Communist meeting room, but the bar they hang out at after the meeting.” There are members of various orgs like PSL, FRSO, Food Not Bombs, etc. on Hexbear alike.

That doesn't describe unity. It describes people who are OK with suppressing themselves in order to hang out in a common space to talk about other matters. I hung out in plenty of ML parties in my days. I was still never united with them.

Anarchism isn’t my ideal, no. That doesn’t mean Anarchists do bad work or that they aren’t good comrades, especially if we are aligned on Imperialism.

How though? Just internet words? That means practically less than nothing. In practice you would be at opposing ends if as you say, your ideal society would include a hierarchical state as the anarchist define it, which is basically anathema.

Yes? I never said it wasn’t. Grad has Marxists that don’t agree with Left-Unity and dunks on Anarchist takes regularly, Hexbear is unique in that it unites both.

I don't see how it does. All I see is people writing and interacting in a very peculiar way. Anarchists I've interacted from hexbear say practically the same things as hexbear MLs.

Even if these two factions somehow managed to put the irreconcilable differences of praxis aside in order to discuss some issues like trans-rights, or genocide and whatnot, it doesn't seem much of a "unity" at all to me as that requires common action. From what I'm seeing, it's more of a common culture than any sort of actual left unity. And common cultute is nothing new either. There's common culture between channers in /r/pol and /leftypol. Common culture with libleft and authright in /r/politicalcompassmemes. Doesn't make them united in any reasonable sense.

Oh yeah that's the one

Hm, from what I'm hearing the "left unity" of anarchists and marxists-leninists only works if said anarchists actually accept the marxist-leninist theory instead of, you know, anarchist one.

I think it’s self-evident when identifying as an Anarchist that AES isn’t your ideal,

Isn't that supposed to be true for MLs as well?

I am honestly struggling to understand how does one distinguish between hexbear anarchists and hexbear MLs when they both accept Leninist theory. We all know (most) anarchists and MLs want the same theoretical end-goal of communism, but differ in praxis. Do hexbear anarchists actually agree with hexbear MLs on praxis?

Not many, I imagine, otherwise they would be on a different instance most likely.

Isn't that kinda circular? Hexbear proves left unity works because it has anarchists who already believe in left unity.

The question is, can an anarchist which doesn't accept any AES remain a member of hexbear for long, or do they get eventually punted for "sectarianism"? In fact, just how many anarchists who don't accept AES states do you actually have in good standing? How many who don't believe in left-unity?

YDI. You went into an explicitly pro-Ukraine comm to spread pro-Russian perspectives. They literally have the first rule as

Sympathy for enemy combatants in any form is prohibited.

.

that cornering a sociopathic nuclear armed dictator is recklessly stupid, and exactly what will trigger a nuclear war

Out of curiosity, would you also argue that palestinians "cornering a sociopathic nuclear armed dictator is recklessly stupid"?

Would it make me understand why hexbears are dogpiling anarchists who reject "left-unity"?

And, for what it’s worth, Hexbear seems to be making ML/Anarchist unity work.

For some definitions of "work", maybe. From my perspective it "works" the same way "unity" works in /r/politicalcompassmemes.

Without knowing what got you dog-piled, you say it yourself, you broke the anti-sectarian rule. I do think that expecting to be treated with kindness when breaking instance rules directly is a bit of a tall order,

Actually no. I broke hexbear's "no-sectarianism" rule in my own instance's anarchism comm and got dogpiled there. Since then, I've been getting dogpiled whenever I commented in hexbear even though I carefully strayed away from any "sectarianism". But once one's labeled as a "wrecker" elsewhere, it doesn't matter if you're doing any rule breaking or not in hexbear.

especially if you use the term “tankie,” which these days just means “Marxist.”

I use tankie in the original meaning. MLs who support brutal authoritarian suppressions of dissent.

The only time it doesn’t work out is if you have an anti-Anarchist Marxist or an anti-Marxist Anarchist, in my experience, and it seems lije you’re more of the latter than not.

I'm not actually anti-Marxist. In fact we still have hexbear federated because I think most marxist have generally the right takes albeit terrible praxis, so it's good to have more people pulling towards the left in discussions. I am however very anti-imperialist and anti-authoritarian and I believe "left-unity" with MLs and Anarchists doesn't work, at best. The latter part is naturally what made me a persona-non-grata in hexbear eyes.

Looks like a CLM situation here, but approaching PTB for how fast they ignored all context to wield the banhammer.